A clue for this is that Amy's shirt hasn't changed since The Impossible Astronaut to The Almost People
Any scene in which Madame Kovarian can been seen peeking through a window indicate that Amy was then a ganger.
Any scene that shows Amy's pregnancy fluctuating in the TARDIS scanner indicates that Amy was then a ganger.
- ↑ Series 6 - The Impossible Astronaut
Guys, if you take the time and rewatch season 6, you will see there is only one answer.
It happened in the three months that occur between 'Impossible Astronaut' (season 6 episode 1) and 'Day of the Moon' (season 6 episode 2). She was at least 2 months along in her pregnancy but could have been as far along as 5 months. I can support this logically with facts.
• Amy got pregnant on her wedding night in the TARDIS.
• The future Doctor summons Amy and Rory to lake Silencia 2 Months after they got married.
• Future Doctor says Amy had gained a few pounds. (He would have known she was pregnant)
• If the silence had already captured Amy they would have kept her ganger from gaining weight.
• In 'Impossible Astronaut' Amy tells The Doctor that she is pregnant.
• Three Months take place between 'Impossible Astronaut' and 'Day of the Moon'
• When she is in the orphanage (Day of the Moon) She sees Kovarian, the eye patch lady.
• That means she had already been captured.
So how does that fit with the Doctor's "Before America"? And how does it fit with Moffatt, Willis & co. saying we'd been seeing Ganger Amy since the start of Series 6?
Also, some of your so-called facts are not facts at all, they're your own assumptions. Failing to distinguish between assumption & fact is a highly effective way to get it wrong, as you've just demonstrated.
I'm just saying that (the new) DW always stuck to the normal narrative, without much skipping, using Rory's 2000years as an example seems a bit dodgy to me, because in those 2000years nothing happened apart from Rory protecting the Pandorica. Same thing happened with the 3 months skip between tIA and DotM, nothing happened apart from the gang tracking down the Silence and checking how much of the US was inhabited by them. However having a kidnapping happen off screen during a time skip seems a bit like "cheating" to me.
I mean it's always clear what happens during the time skip. The bit that bothered me most was at the end of DotM, 6months later, does that mean 6 months after the moonlanding or 6 months after the Gang defeated the Silence from their own point of view.
Yay my theory could be right xD
I think it's obvious when the switch happened: "Flesh and Stone"!!! Remember Sexy the Tardis said "The only water in the forest is the river." So Amy Pond was not in the forest in "Flesh and Stone" and of course Pond was never in the "Forest of the Dead" for that matter as well.
- No, this is not true. "The only water in the forest is the river" is the line to tell them what they don't know yet. To have Amy kidnapped WAY early... BEFORE her wedding seems a bit of a stretch. How about a VERY long stretch. And if she was taken that long before, tell me exactly how she could get pregnant onboard the Tardis, and Mels would be a child of the Tardis, if Amy wasn't there.
Yes, somebody agrees with my theory, i thought the same thing, but that doesn't mean the switch happened during flesh and stone, it could have been before that episode. And i've always found the first episode weird, with the duck pond, that was never explained.
It couldn't of happened in Flesh and the Stone because then she wouldn't be pregnant with a TARDIS child (river) and river wouldn't have been able to kill the doctor it had to have happened after the Christmas special
"The bit that bothered me most was at the end of DotM, 6months later, does that mean 6 months after the moonlanding or 6 months after the Gang defeated the Silence from their own point of view."
6 months later means 6 months after the preceding scene.
If DW Confidential is telling the truth about Amy having been a ganger right from the start of the series, Steven Moffatt is going to have to come up with something really, really, really special to justify it, because that does seem very much like cheating the audience.
"If DW Confidential is telling the truth about Amy having been a ganger right from the start of the series, Steven Moffatt is going to have to come up with something really, really, really special to justify it, because that does seem very much like cheating the audience."
It probably happened during Season 5 and we probably had clues to figure it out, but we won't see it until it's explained. But I agree if it happened completely offscreen that would be cheating.
"6 months later means 6 months after the preceding scene."
That doesn't answer my question, 6 months from the Doctor's point of view, or 6 months after the Moonlanding?
It seems to me that the switch occurred after "Forest of the Dead" and the wedding that took place in "The Big Bang." Otherwise, the events of the story aren't very satisfying (narratively speaking). Consider the following: if Ganger-Amy married Rory, Real-Amy and Rory are not married. Further, at what point did Real-Amy become pregnant under that scenario (assuming Rory is the father)? I ask this because Amy did not appear to be pregnant at any time during series 5. If Ganger-Amy was the Pond in "Forest of the Dead" it would mean that the Doctor is pleading with Ganger-Amy to trust him, and it is Ganger-Amy that later brings the Doctor back into existence after having married Rory, as opposed to the actual Amelia, the girl who waited and grew up without her parents, etc. That same ganger would later be dissolved by the Doctor, which is harsh for both real and ganger Pond.
- You are SO off on this one. "Forest of the Dead" was the second part of The Library episode, with 10 and Donna. Yes, she was taken after this, CAUSE IT IS WAY AFTER.
As for when there was an opportunity for the Silence to *create* Ganger-Amy, it seems to me that it occured during "The Lodger." Consider this: the Doctor is mysteriously blown out of the T.A.R.D.I.S. which takes off with Amy. It later become clear that the fake T.A.R.D.I.S. was responsible for this (or someone connected to the fake T.A.R.D.I.S.). The Doctor is away from the T.A.R.D.I.S. for several days and is only in communication with Amy from time to time. It seems to me that there is no more excellent an opportunity for the Silence to take Amy *and* hijack the T.A.R.D.I.S. so that it will explode (if they are the saboteurs). Amy would not remember anything that occured, and as a result the Doctor wouldn't suspect that that Amy had been cloned or the T.A.R.D.I.S. had be sabatoged. If not for the fact that it is so unpleasant to the storyline, I would say Amy was switched right there, in "The Lodger." However, this is "Doctor Who" and not "Luther," so I don't think the switch happened before the end of Amy's wedding.
According to DW Confidential, the Amy we've seen has been Ganger-Amy throughout Series 6, up to the end of episode 6. When they said that, they showed a clip of Amy getting off the yellow school bus near the start of episode 1, before meeting either version of the Doctor. I agree it's not likely that even Steven Moffatt would decide to have her swapped before her wedding, since that would throw doubt (to put it mildly) on whether or not she and Rory were really married. It was probably the real Amy during the honeymoon, too.
That very early swap does cast doubt on the assumption that it was the Silence who replaced Amy with a copy. It might have been someone who knew the Silence intended to kidnap her, as they did, and wanted to make sure the Silence didn't get hold of the real Amy.
You raise an interesting point. If the Silence didn't create Ganger-Amy in "The Lodger" and she had already been created before the trip to 1969 in "Day of the Moon," then someone else might be behind it. Also, Ganger-Amy saw a member of the Silence at the picnic, meaning:
(1) Not all the Silence were destroyed by the Doctor's "Neil Armstrong's Foot" plan,
(2) the Silence had a reason to be present at this event (i.e., the Doctor's death. Controlling the spacesuit perhaps, or making sure the person in the suit was under control?), and
(3) that member of the Silence could have interacted with the group while they were having the picnic and they don't remember it. Freaky.
The time it would have taken to kidnap and duplicate Amy is irrelevant as The Silence have at least 1 timeship. It could have taken no time at all and they would have had to go to the future anyway as the flesh had not been invented at any of the times in the opening episodes. (As far as we know. Perhaps the military's 'worst kept secret' was better kept before.)
Looking at the trailers, it does seem unlikely that the Silence are heavily involved as the people holding Amy appear to be human, who would probably have seen the moon landing video with extras. This would make it sort of difficult for the Silence to work with them, especially seeing as they all seem to be armed.
I suspect that the people who substituted the ganger for the real Amy are not the Silence but are, in fact, opposing them, although by questionable methods. The Silence kidnapped Amy, albeit Ganger-Amy, and had some plan to use her to "bring the Silence". Simply warning the real Amy would risk tipping off the Silence that someone was on to their plans. Replacing Amy by Ganger-Amy would ensure the Silence didn't get hold of the real Amy but would avoid tipping them off.
That scenario also sets up a conflict between 2 groups who are both opposing the Silence and ought to be on the same side. That conflict is likely to be fairly bitter because neither Rory nor the Doctor is going to be happy about what's happened to Amy. Since the Silence are unlikely to be finished, even though the Doctor has inflicted a serious setback on them, the Doctor will need to sort out the conflict between him plus his companions (one group) and Eye Patch Lady plus her associates (the other group) before the Silence can be properly dealt with.
Please note that this is speculation. I don't have any inside knowledge about the series plots.
Just speculation here (obviously), but I like the theory that Amy was taken during the events of the Lodger. She was alone in the TARDIS, we don't really know what caused the TARDIS to slam the doors on the doctor and de-materialise leaving him on Earth. What's more, if you watch the episode closely there are brief shots of Amy spotting something off screen, being frightened by what she's seen and then being distracted by the Doctor and then seemingly forgetting all about it. And then there's the controversy with Amy's house, the stairs on the first floor just outside her bedroom which lead up to a second floor which can't be seen from the outside of the house, and these stairs look very similar to the stairs in the Lodger.
The major (very, very major) problem with the the theory that Amy was taken during the events of The Lodger is that it would mean that Rory went through what the law calls "a Form of Marriage" with Ganger-Amy, which would, at the least, cast great doubt on the validity of the marriage. That's not something Auntie is going to want in a family show.
But what's the alternative? We know from confidential that she's been a ganger for all of series 6 (does this include the Christmas special?) and their marriage was literally the last thing to happen in series 5. Unless Amy was taken at some unidentified point between the wedding and the events of tIA, but I agree with the above poster that it's a bit like cheating if they swap her in a period which was not shown on screen. As has already been stated, I think when we find out when Amy was taken, we'll realise that the clues were there all along, but were so minute that we simply didn't notice them.
With the logistics of marriage to a ganger, is it that dissimilar to the issues surround Jimmy/ganger Jimmy's son? Also, why didn't the solar storm affect ganger Amy in the same way as it affected the other gangers? Is it because real Amy was far out of the storm's range?
From what was said and shown on Confidential, I don't think A Christmas Carol is being counted as part of Series 6, nor are Space and Time.
"Is it because real Amy was far out of the storm's range?" Probably. Also, we don't yet know what time period the technology is from that's being used on Amy. It might not have suffered the same weaknesses as the technology in the old monastery. Remember, in order to keep Amy linked to her ganger, it has to have been able to reach through both time and space, and even into House's bubble universe. I doubt if the early 22nd-century equipment in the monastery could do that.
Two comments: 1) Let's stop falling for homophones here and correct some spelling. I think it just as plausible (if not more so) to type "We are the Silents." Same sound to the word, different meaning. Think about it.
2) After what Amy tried to pull with the Doctor at the end of "Flesh and Stone", why in the world would we think that she only got pregnant AFTER getting married? She and Rory very likely got it on many times before the big day. And we know that the Doctor didn't take off with her until the night before. She could have been pregnant before that. Flesh and Stone happened soon enough after to not have her showing.
However, one question to follow up: If we had Ganger-Amy at end of series 5, why didn't she dissolve into a puddle when Plasti-Rory shot her?
All this speculation is hurting my head. You guys sure pay attention to detail. Here's my theory: the writers won't even answer this question. They'll leave it as a loose end like so many other plot devices since the beginning of season 5, keeping us guessing. My guess is the next episode is going to involve some sort of attempted rescue, but Pond is going to have the same memories as the ganger-Amy so any of your theories could be correct. "Flesh and Stone" to "Lodger" to "Day of the Moon" all seem reasonable. I wouldn't be at all surprised if it happened off-screen in the months between s5 and s6, in one of the gaps, or the obvious kidnapping in "Day of the Moon."
Here's what I think, my personal opinion: regardless, this pregnancy is lame. Moffat is too obsessed with romance and intimacy, and has forgotten it's supposed to be a family show with a comprehensible plot. At the end of season 5, we still didn't know who crashed/exploded the TARDIS. (then, it just appears because Amy can remember it back. If you want to discuss "cheating," you can start there and bringing Rory back after over 2000 years.) At the end of season 6, I bet we still won't know who's the baby's daddy! They decided to put in a little hybrid girl who can regenerate between the series, and I bet they were thinking "damn, we forgot to put eye-patch woman somewhere in s5 so we'll just let them speculate."
It's not romance and intimacy that Steven Moffatt is obsessed with, it's red herrings. The whole thing is meant to hurt your head when you try to figure out what's going on.
You're (previous poster) right in that it's meant to hurt my head, but it sure can get annoying when we start debating whether a picture was photoshopped or maybe deliberately placed to throw us off. It's like in the "boy who cried wolf," nothing really surprises me because anything could happen. e.g. how do we know real Amy isn't a ganger? Jennifer had several. Or, what if the baby actually grew three heads or a "time head." I don't know; it could happen... perhaps, ganger-Amy's mention of "time head" was a massive clue.
On the other hand, the whole "Amy's Choice" episode, her trying to seduce the Doctor at the end of "Flesh and Stone," the dynamic between River Song and the trio, Rory waiting 2000 years for Amy, and the list goes on--this pregnancy issue was only the last of many instances. It's not like series 3 when the Doctor ignored Martha's advances, or when it slowly built up in series 1 and 2 and finally concluded at the end of s4 with Rose. He seems to be obsessed with both themes we've discussed. We wind up with questions like "who's the father?" "who's the mother?" and we have to explain to children topics like genealogy and parenthood.
Back to the original topic, I don't mind a healthy discussion on the possibilities, but it can disappointing when we pretty much all think it should have happened sometime in series 5, either in " the Lodger" or "F&S;" however, there's a good possibility we're wrong, and it happened some random time when we weren't paying attention. Problem is, we were paying very close attention.
If you're hinting that, just possibly, Steven Moffatt is overdoing it a bit with the red herrings, there are those who'd agree with you. The man seems to be very seriously addicted to them. (I wonder if red herrings have fingers -- after all, they're fish -- aaargh!)
_____________________________________________________________________________________________I like the Lodger theory, especially when you consider that the set where Amy is abducted to in Day of the Moon (by the Silence) is exactly the same as the mysterious time engine/TARDIS-wanna-be that was in the Lodger... i mean there are a LOT of things that would need to be explained... like how much time has actually passed since she ran away with the doctor... it does seem unlikely though that she got pregnant before she left with the doctor, only because it seems like too much time would have passed and she should be showing... since we know that a) she said it had been two months since the doctor said he would contact them and b) the Day of the Moon happens 3 months after the Impossible Astronaut... after 5 months of "being pregnant" she would have been showing, right?
ALSO. another thought occurs to me. If time is essentially rewritten with the Big Bang, where she doesn't meet the doctor in this (for lack of a better word) "reality" until she remembers him at her wedding, then it seems unlikely that much time has passed at all AND it brings into question how she could possibly have been swapped at any point during series 5. Especially since the Pandorica had to register her DNA to open and let the elder Amy out in The Big Bang.
This leads me to conclude that I have to agree with the above, and they must all be the most ridiculously carefully planned red herrings of all time, and she is swapped out at some point in between the two series.
ANOTHER THING. at the end of Day of the Moon, when he appears in the control room of their time engine he says, "This looks familiar, i've seen this before... abandoned. i wonder how that happened? I guess I'm about to find out." And the whole deal with the Lodger is that the time engine is abandoned and trying to find a new captain. I feel like this is somehow significant.
I feel that it happens early in 6 because Amy concieved on their weeding night=end of season 5. So it must be early season.
In my case of opinion it was when Amy and that Other guy was in the orphanage. Because in the episode before, she revealed she was having a baby. And in the orphanage episode, Amy screamed and when they went to the room she was gone.
these are all good theories.i've pieced together my own theory from all of the above. i dont know why you're mentioning forest of the dead. that's an episode from series 4 with the 10nth doctor. river is part timelord becuase she was conceived on the tardis, during amy and rorys honeymoon. which i believe to be the christmas special. so i think amy was taken sometime between the impossible astronaut and day of the moon. after they found out about the silence in the impossible astronaut, they spent three months or so, running from the fbi during nixons time. trying to find silence. i think she was swapped for a ganger sometime in that period. they would probably have all been seperated, rory, river and amy. this is all theory of course. sorry for my bad spelling
oh and idris saying the only water in the forest is the river? that's a references to the forest people from a goodman goes to war. they wrote melody ponds name on cloth but dont know what a pond is, only that it's water so they wrote the name of their source of water. and same for melody, they wrote song instead.